Poor losers

Nasty old people who voted out.

How many times has this been said over the weekend?

Ageism at its best.

‘They’ve ruined my future.’

Um. I’m in my fifties. I could have ten, twenty, thirty years to live. Don’t I have a future too?

More to the point, I remember the days before the EU. I have a comparator. You, darling children of 43 or younger, do not.

Surprisingly life was OK.

‘I might not be able to work in Europe.’

I asked my partner how many people he knew who had worked in Europe. He rattled off half a dozen names. All tradespeople. I couldn’t think of a single university educated contemporary who has worked in Europe.

Truth is most young graduates do not work in Europe. Well, I did, grapepicking, but that was hardly a major career boost.

Oh and as an au pair. Not my finest moments.

But this isn’t about little paid holidays in Europe.

In 2013 the Red Cross announced they would start distributing food in the UK for the first time since WW2.

Food banks have cropped up all over the UK this century. Why? Just. Why.

People do not have enough money to buy food.

This is the EU of progress.

There were no food banks when I grew up. I didn’t know there were food banks when I left the UK. (There were.)

Eat up …
Eat up …

I was horrified to discover how many now exist in the UK.

Why on earth do people think the older working classes voted to leave Europe?

Because nothing has improved. Nothing. At. All.

Millions of meals handed out in Wales. A third of people earning less than a living wage.

Meals
Meals

Why did Wales vote out?

Meanwhile, poor sad Scotland, poor sad Northern Ireland, and poor sad Gibbos are all complaining.

‘But what about us?’

What about you? You voted. That’s it.

I never expected Leave to win. But if Leave had lost, that would have been it. Tomorrow’s another day. What is with this whingeing?

Learn to lose gracefully people.

116 comments on “Poor losers”

  1. Hear, hear! Democracy is democracy, even if you don’t get the result you want. Certain remain-ers are coming across as very undignified. By the way, I am 35 and voted Leave. So there. ;)

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    • Thank you PorterGirl for your comment. Given that younger people have grown up with the EU, why did you vote out? Everyone we know pre 1973 voted in. Except most of them said if they were in the UK (not Gib) they would have voted out. Self, self.

      But yes, democracy occasionally works. Well. Sort of.

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      • The EU is a dreadfully corrupt organisation and the members unelected. I was very much hoping for a renegotiation of terms and stay in, but when that failed Leave seemed the only sensible option to me.

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        • Agree. And the money spent is astronomical. Thatcher did get a decent deal at one point, Cameron didn’t.

          But for most of us, life is about a job. And since the EEC, that chance of life and work has constantly been eroded. Not necessarily connected. Still …

          I am hoping MPs will take responsibility and stop staying, ‘But the EU …’

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  2. Interesting you should mention foodbanks. The Son from another Mother’s aunt is involved with a big foodbank somewhere near Liverpool. As you say, who would have thought?

    Just when I think it can’t get worse, we hear of secret reports about what’s happening around SA ahead of the municipal elections – the most violence / unrest associated with any election before or after democracy; the national broadcaster refusing to report it and now there has been an announcement of the amount that Zuma must pay. We don’t know whether to laugh or cry. No-one believes that the man with very short arms, and long fingers will actually extract a bean from his own very long pockets. Sigh….

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    • The issue is about the process. A referendum is part of a democratic process if the constitution provides for that.

      I don’t need the link. I’m well aware of Parliamentary sovereignty.

      Now, a referendum is about individual votes. It’s not done by region, even though it has been reported like that for practical reasons.

      London in, Cardiff in, Newcastle – just – in, and other cities in etc.

      But the rest of England and Wales? Out. What’s wrong with accepting their point of view?

      Four per cent. Get your facts right.

      And should people living in France, Spain, America really have been able to vote?

      As I said. Poor losers.

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  4. They are a staple in the Canadian food distribution system as well. And even worse,the number and groceries distributed grows significantly year by year.

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    • This Canadian will confirm your claim of the food banks here — Not sure which part of the country you’re in but here on the west coast they’ve been around for at least a decade — probably longer. We can’t blame membership in the EU either.

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      • You’ve nailed it Diana. Many in the UK are blaming the EU for poor financials when the same is happening everywhere and it is because capitalism transfers more wealth every year to a smaller percentage of the wealthy and the poor and middle classes have less. No one believes me.

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        • Of course capitalism is doing exactly that, as is globalisation. And the EU is seen by some, as doing exactly that. Giving deals to bankers and forcing cuts in public services and raising taxes? What part of moving the money to the rich and robbing the poor dies that not equate to?

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          • All comes back to greed – and those in power/elected lining their pockets and making their friends rich. Power corrupts no matter the governing system.
            That we have so many children growing up hungry. Schools offer free breakfasts and lunches and some schools’ volunteers send home sandwiches and canned goods for weekends – yet food banks hand out more and more food and federal/state “food stamp” charge grocerycards are used everywhere – but kids and elderly are still hungry? Corruption, greed, and scamming the system.
            Unless people start feeling about stealing, it may not get better.
            That and the fact that we in the US have generations of families who have grown up on welfare and none of them have ever worked.
            Honestly many of the new arrival immigrants have more motivation and desire to work to improve themselves and their children’s lives than some US citizens who feel people should just hand them whatever they want.
            No matter the form of government, it all depends on the people.
            We’ll see.
            Brave new world – fiction or not?

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          • Food. It should be a priority for society. Drives me up the wall that people starve.
            America. Home of the world’s first food bank in the sixties, maybe 67? Can’t remember.
            Rich developed countries should not hsve people living in poverty needing food stamps and food banks. That includes, America, UK, France, Germany, Spain, Netherlands etc etc. so wrong.

            I see a different picture re immigrants. Sure they want to work, why would they not, there is no work in their countries, but I see people in the UK who want to work but see their rate not just halved, or cut in three but in four. Because, to people who can rarn nothing in their own country, anything is better than nothing. But is that a reason for everyone else to work for nothing? Because immigrants will?

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          • As one who was replaced by an immigrant with limited English but was willing to work for half my salary (until her kid was born – employer then shocked that she admitted she only wanted her son to have dual citizenship (and she could stay because of him) and never planned to work after he was born….yeah. totally annoying.
            We are so lucky here that there are many jobs and employers hiring. It may not be the job you want to stay in, but it pays the bills and gives you a leg up for the next job. So I am pretty annoyed at those who stay on welfare/food stamps because they are “too good for the jobs available”. I’ve done jobs I hated until I could jump else where.
            If immigration is orderly and legal, there won’t be shadow worlds where new arrival undocumented workers are happy with a substandard wage which undercuts legal residents who are required to be paid minimum wage. We have to get rid of under the table wages which do hurt everyone. Fair treatment for all workers.
            Food waste is infuriating. Restaurants here do donate left over food to groups come by and pick up it up and distribute it. One of our neighbors owned a grocery store when I was growing up – he used to shake his head at people who would only buy “perfect” produce. Guess those people never knew a garden and what real food looked like. It’s worse now. All that less that perfect but still nutricious stuff is tossed. People too spoiled, too high expectations, too lazy to pull off the small damaged spots – or just too foolish? Sigh.
            There were food banks here in the Great Depression. After that churches pretty much ran them – many still do. Not a government thing. Food stamps and WIC (women infant and children program) is federal. Local school breakfast and lunch programs are usually combo state and federal.
            I’d like to see some program offering 3 meals a day for a day’s work – it’s not like there’s not stuff that needs to be done. So many places could use volunteer help – much of it indoors and much of it could be training towards getting a solid job.
            In any case, why are so many hungry? Let’s see, one basketball player signed contract for 80 million dollars, another $118 million (for 4 yrs with pay raises and bonuses possible), a football player – $114.5 million for 6 yrs….cops about $50,000.00 a year –
            Pretty grim.

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  6. In France Secours Populaire, its Catho equivalent and Restos de Coeur are overwhelmed with people needing help with one of the basics of life…food, while the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy shovels profits into the agroalimentary giants. Friends in France say they would vote out like a shot…

    Mark you they are mostly over 60 so I suppose their views don’t count as they will be dead in some thirty years’ time…

    I hear whinges of the vote not being democratic…can’t remember hearing similar whinges in the FPTP system when there is a close result in a constitutency. A recount to be sure, yes…undemocratic, certainly not.

    There’s an American commentator of French politics – Art Goldhammer – who thinks that it is unthinkable to let a democratic vote change something so important as EU membership: he seems to prefer letting the ruling tribe of trough feeders decide.

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  7. It seems like all the coverage I’m seeing here in the U.S. involves Brexit being the equivalent of the sky falling and setting everyone’s house on fire. There’s been some fallout reported in the markets, but I think that might have happened anyways. Mostly, I’m worried that this vote isn’t going to help anyone in the U.K. improve their lives. Granted, that’s coming from Republican-inspired cynicism.

    They’ve been promising better wages for years here in the States, and they haven’t delivered. Seeing this as a problem in other countries is depressing. It feels like the world is falling back into Victorian economics, with haves and have nots and nobody in between. That’s scary, considering all the violence that marked the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

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  8. We in the US have more food banks, too. And the “upturn” in the economy has mostly been good for the upper middle class and the rich so they can hold tighter to their money and not use any of it to create the lower paying but decent jobs the rest of us need.

    I’m always nervous about gathering information so I can make an informed decision about these kinds of votes. In the US, they are usually referendums that have less impact on ours and the world’s economy. Still, I struggle with trying to learn the direct and indirect consequences of the thing I’m for and the thing I’m against. I’ve gone so far as to learn what organizations or private citizens are funding the information I find (to gauge how biased or honest the information may be), and I read and watch a lot of what the other side says.

    As for Brexit, the problems you describe Britain having with the EU remind me of ongoing problems we have in the US between the states and the central government in Washington DC. One side or the other will always hate the way the vote went and perhaps even suffer because of what is decided in congress, or by the Supreme Court if a matter goes that far. Still, I know it would be madness if each of our states became a separate country. That would make our region ripe for another civil war; our differences cut so sharp.

    I respect what Winston Churchill thought about the subject before the EU was formed. He saw the devastation and horror of two world wars in Europe, and suggested that countries work together in some sort of union as a way to solve problems together and hold on to a basic sort of peace — “a United States of Europe” was how he referred to the notion in a speech he gave. I wish Britain could have found ways to help the EU become a better thing for themselves and all the struggling nations involved.

    I’m sorry this was so long. I’ve been reading and watching a lot about this subject and saying nothing. I only found words to express my feelings today after reading your piece. I wish you well.

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    • If the vote had gone the other way, I would have been sad but accepted it. Why, is there such grief that it has gone for Out? All these accusations about lack of democracy, poor everywhere that voted in, poor young people, yack yack. The list is bloody endless. Maybe that’s why Out won. We aren’t such whingey bastards.

      Now we have Sturgeon can reverse it, or someone can, or anyone can.

      Off to Spain next week. Although … that’s another crock of shit!

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  10. Yeh, we shouldn’t have foodbanks in this country and if we’re the world’s 5th biggest economy our Health Service should work. I voted remain, but once the racist turmoil dies down – and I’m pretty certain that’s why people are whinging – I hope we will be able to work together to build something better. Whatever anyone thinks of the result, UKIP got what it wanted, so now it can fuck off!

    Cheers

    MTM

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    • Well Germany and France have foodbanks too, so it seems all the rich EU countries need them. You know my health service views … although it might help if people didn’t go to GPs for a flipping sniffle.
      I don’t understand some of the racist comments. Of course, one could imagine a neat conspiracy theory again :) Slogans? Jo Cox? Of the out voters I know, no one has mentioned race. And that’s a mix of people, rich Gibbos, working class Gibbos, and a range of ages in Britain.
      I could be depressed that the important issue is agreeing to implement the result yet all we have is Sturgeon looking for a different solution, Picardo (Gib) doing the same, Tories and Labour vying for power, and I’m not up on NI. Come on people, get on with working out a solution. Trouble is, they never expected it. Gotta laugh at that!

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      • Tell me about it. The arrogance of not planning, too. On the sniffle front, I hear you. I heard somewhere, from a source close to a 999 operator that someone had run 999 because she thought she was going to die because she’d tied up her dressing gown cord too tight and couldn’t get the knot undone. It beggars belief!

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  11. Most of the talk on NPR here in the States is on the UK “cutting themselves off” from Europe or the rest of the world. Bs. Fear mongering. There was a UK and a Europe and international trade well before the EU and there will be after its gone

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  12. We will see what comes of it. I don’t think you can set the clock back. Will those English factories re-open and give jobs to the unemployed. What will separating from your neighbours achieve? The English have always been suspicious of their neighbours and really don’t regard themselves as part of Europe or even Europeans. A peculiarly insulated mentality. The Victorian gun-boat policy has long gone.

    Globalisation is here to stay and countries that invest in good education with fostering innovation and working together will survive. Where is the equivalent of a Swedish Ikea, or Danish wind turbines, Holland being small, yet the 3d or fourth largest producers of agricultural products. Where is that found today in the UK?

    Boris and Farage fostered a movement to get out of the EU and galvanised the unhappiness amongst millions, and they succeeded. But what and where will they go next? We will see what will happens!

    My parents, after having migrated to Australia in 1956, returned back to Holland in 1974 when dad retired. It still is almost impossible to live of the Australian pension which is 40% of average wage. In Holland, (thanks to the EU) it is 80%. My elder brother was diagnosed with chronic schizophrenia in 1959 and had a hell of a life in Australia where mental health and support even to day is woefully inadequate.

    He was repatriated to Holland in the mid seventies and has excellent care. He has a good income, his own room and expert staff looking after him. Each time we visited him, doctors went through great length explaining to us what could be done to improve his wellbeing. It is the EU which pushed Europe to a post-war economy with many social benefits.

    I know that the influx of many migrants and refugees is a difficult issue but racking up discontent and chanelling racism is not the answer.

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  13. But here’s all that dosh flowing your way… what did it say on the bus — 350 gazillion pounds per week? Granted, your elected officials are running around like headless chooks, even the ones who pushed to leave. Except for Nicola Sturgeon…

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  14. As they say in Parliament…. ‘here, here. well said K. I have read, heard ans seen so much crap by the remain group, it is getting boring. Dummies being thrown out of their prams…..sour grapes. the end of the world is nigh… yeh yeh right. take it on the chin and lets all move towards a better place..

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    • Absolutely. Totally boring. Tired of being called racist, xenophobic, uneducated, selfish, unwashed, too old to have a vote, exactly like Trump, you name it. At the last referendum my partner didn’t whinge on endlessly that the vote went the other way.
      Maybe politicians should do two things. 1) Understand the causes of the malaise 2) Pull their fingers out because they won’t be able to blame the EU for everything any more (Ha!). Actually, judging on current performance they’ll just blame the 52%. I mean look at them. Scrapping about party leadership now instead of doing something. The average person in the street could do better.

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    • But, what to make of the news from England that hateful messages appeared on shop windows owned by people with foreign names? A school boy was picked on because of his Polish name. I seem to remember that to be a precursor to the rise of some terrible historical events.

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  15. Most of the channel four vids I perused this morning were chokka full of xenophobic hate, including that from soccer thugs in France. Watching that made me utterly ashamed.
    I grew up alongside this sort of scum. Thick as pig shit. And was it truly that much better before?
    I seem to recall a fair amount of moaning and groaning and quite a lot of strikes back then before EU and during the days of Ted Heath etc. The average British worker was not held in very high regard if memory serves.

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    • No TV here. Soccer hooligans have always been the same? Haven’t they?
      Throwing ball bearings under horses so police officers were immobilised? Throwing cans/bottles/whatever onto pitches? Fighting afterwards? And that was just at Elland Road. At one match. (Keegan wasn’t popular) Football is weird. Tribalism at best, or rather worst.
      Well Ted Heath took us into Europe, and things didn’t go too well after that. Coincidence? The economy? Who can say. Miners’ major strikes were in the 80s. Building workers strikes and journalism were 70s.
      Given that you are younger than me, what do you remember bad in the 60s?
      By the way, scum and thick as pigshit isn’t much different to the comments people you are criticising are apparently/allegedly saying.
      Not everyone who voted out is a racist uneducated hooligan.

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      • Not everyone who voted out is a racist uneducated hooligan.

        I never said they were, but the ones chanting vile slogans and inciting violence were exactly the type I described.
        I remember a little of the late sixties, but during the seventies there was a fair amount of industrial action.
        Who could forget Mister Scargill.

        I don’t recall saying it was a bad thing the UK puled out either.
        Both sides seemed to have agendas they were not totally transparent about.

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        • No, but actually the ways views (in general) are being portrayed is that everyone who voted out, is certainly that they are uneducated racists who are so thick they don’t deserve a vote, yes? (Qv a fair few comments on your blog)
          So 70s, was post EU, ie post 1 Jan 1973 or rather EEC. As was.
          Don’t start me on Scargill. He was the biggest opportunist ever. He made his career out of the Lofthouse pit disaster (my area). A total disgrace. I think I wrote about him on Clouds.
          You said you would have voted leave, I think? And couldn’t understand why people had voted out? That doesn’t suggest you thought it was a reasonable option. Not just the UK, expats and Gib. That is must off the wall. Total skewing of votes.
          Never read any campaigns or sides or anything.
          Power jostling. Just fucks up the average person in the street :(

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          • In the end, I suspect it is all about money as it so often is.
            But there is also fear; real and imagined. The ideal mix for any opportunist to use.
            I haven’t watched/read enough and I would not say all are uneducated and racist, but a fair amount are.
            A lot more are uninformed, which is just as bad.

            Based on what I have seen/read concerning extreme positions and the apparent rise of religious militancy, and the possible shit storm on the horizon, I may very well have voted Leave.
            But it doesn’t matter now, as the UK is out.
            Now we will just have to wait and see what pans out?

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          • You might also see some people sporting Enoch Powell T-shirts, petitions( or worse) outside mosques,
            and someone will suggest ”refueling the Spitfires” – including a few honorary fly bys .

            Very helpful. Indeed. Surely such cheap shots are beneath you?

            I would not say all are uneducated and racist, but a fair amount are.

            So, what’s the definition of educated? Ten O levels/GCSEs, three A levels, a degree, a master’s, a doctorate? City and Guilds/ITB qualifications excluded? That is as despicable as racism and yet that is what I am hearing from people. Thick, working classes. Don’t deserve to vote. This could well be why there is a problem. Let alone not getting jobs.

            My birth town is virtually an Islamic Republic with a Sharia court. When a former colleague wrote about it, I thought he was totally rascist. I still think he is. But would I live there? Oh no. Would you? I doubt it. It’s a shithole depressed town. That’s why religion and immigration and the economy and jobs and posh southerners and everything else have all come together in this one vote.

            They should be getting on and sorting it out.

            And, yes money makes the world go round:

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          • *Smile* Are we spoiling for a fight? lol Two ex-pats who have farcall to do with Ingerlund any more ”having at it” as they say. Well, I’m game.

            Enoch Powell T- shirts?
            Of course I must remember you are at times an irony-impaired highly strung feminist. However, if said T shirts were given out free at the job centres or dole queues and came with an explanation to those under 30, then you never know, they might become a neo-facist fashion accessory?

            True democracy is ensuring everyone votes. Sadly, I am sure being unemployed dampens the enthusiasm somewhat and it likely linked with self worth etc.

            Whenever there is talk of the good old days of Great Britain, there is always talk of ”The Hun”, Douglas Badar , and cricket, civilizing natives, drinking tea, and thrashing slackers. Spitfires naturally fall into this category.
            So, if the nation could pull together to kill Germans and have almost zero unemployment surely they could make a similar effort to stave of militant Islamic terrorism and Manchester United supporters and endeavour to push toward full employment once again?

            Do you have a gripe against posh southerners?
            I used to live ”up north” in Chester. I must confess my late brother and I were beaten up on our first day at junior school by a gang of kids for wearing the same design of trousers ( bought from Marks and Sparks) and for ”speaking funny” and being posh.

            Oh, I am still posh.
            Rather be a snob than a slob.

            Intelligence is the ability to realise that just because someone says ”e, by gum” does not mean they are thick as a doorstep sarmie and neither doe speaking with a mouthful of plums mean they are super smart.

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          • Fight? Not at all. En serio.

            Well until you come out with the personal sarcasm. That might trigger it.

            Truth is, if you left 30 or more years ago, I was working there in the 80s and 90s. And that’s why I left.

            The only people I have seen talking about the GODs (ironic huh? despite my impairment) are the critics of the Outers. Why anyone would think the average unemployed/working class person could get invited to the vicar’s tea party I don’t know. I only got invited for sherry once because … well, that’s another story. And cricket has always bored the knickers off me.

            I think the acceptance of Sharia law in preference to English judicial law is wrong. That’s a mistake.

            Gripe against posh southerners? When they tell me how to think and consider their Eton education (Cameron and Johnson), then, yes. Do you like being told what to think?

            Chester is posh also. In the scheme of things. No different to me being beaten up for wearing the wrong school uniform.

            Rather not be either. See, you are insulting people again. Not nice. People aren’t slobs because they are poor and don’t go to the posh school.

            Intelligence is the ability to realise that just because someone says ”e, by gum” does not mean they are thick as a doorstep sarmie and neither doe speaking with a mouthful of plums mean they are super smart

            Oh good. Shame you didn’t say that to some of your commenters.

            PS. A posh hairdresser? Sounds like me being a posh Yorkshire person.

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          • I think the acceptance of Sharia law in preference to English judicial law is wrong. That’s a mistake.

            I would have believed this was a no- brainer.
            To do so is a perfect example of a complete abdication of intelligence/critical thought.

            Do you like being told what to think?

            I never put myself in a position where this might be an issue to be honest.

            PS. A posh hairdresser? Sounds like me being a posh Yorkshire person.

            Perhaps you frequented ladies barbers, rather?
            I never had an issue with my class and always knew perfectly well what a ”posh” hairdresser was . And I still do.

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          • Sharia is complicated.

            Here’s an old story:

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2957428/Sharia-law-courts-operating-in-Britain.html

            More recent:

            http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sharia-in-the-uk-the-courts-in-the-shadow-of-british-law-offering-rough-justice-for-muslim-women-a6761221.html.

            Try this, from a bastion of Brexit newspaper:

            http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14418217.One_in_four_British_Muslims_back_Sharia_law/

            And this:

            http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/07/02/uks-first-female-sharia-judge-we-cant-ask-muslims-not-to-have-more-than-one-wife/

            There’s more. But it’s not a no-brainer. It is happening.

            Ignored by lots of people with alleged intelligence/critical thinking.

            What to think?

            Good idea. Always best to avoid/ignore those who attempt to do it :)

            Hair?

            Told you before, initially Steiner for ages. Had a hair cut in Spain once and it was The. Best. Ever.

            I think someone who prefers to be a snob not a slob could have certain views. But no doubt they are ironical.

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          • If it is happening it need s to be stopped. That too is a no brainer.
            But then all religion need to be addressed as the fiction it is and the good ol’ C of E, the Catholics and the Jews need to start telling the truth. Then perhaps they can make more headway re Islam.

            I worked for Steiner.

            Glad you found a posh hairdresser.

            I think being a snob means one has a bit more culture than a yogurt – and generally know how to use a knife and fork and also, when not to.

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          • But it’s not being stopped. Hence the confusion with racism, and Islam, and depressed wages, and … and …
            Yes. I remember the Steiner convo.
            Actually the Spanish ones were posh. The best was in some place north of Barcelona. It was the only one open at lunchtime. I’d checked out prices but by the time I came round to going for it, nothing else was open. It was seriously posh. Ah, Girona, that was it.
            Then I tried Marbella and Furngirola. I only got my hair cut on Spanish hols. These days I trim the split ends and the fringe over the toilet.
            I think being a snob means looking down on people who lack silver cutlery :)

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          • *Sigh*
            Well, if they don’t stop it then more fool them and they will reap what they sow, n’est ce pas?
            Yes,it will soon be definitely time to fire up the Spitfires, what?
            ‘Hurry up Bigglesworth, and don’t forget the silver. Big knees up at the officers’ mess, what? Number one Memsahib is arriving from Blighty.”

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          • Ark, this has been going on for years. I’m all for total acceptance of Muslim/Indian British citizens. FFS they came in the 50s to do the crappy jobs no one else wanted. Well, in my unposh area of Yks at any rate. They are commonwealth, accepted in and British. I have zilch issue with that. Same with Ugandan Asians, Caribbeans. Quite frankly my dear, I don’t etc. I do give a damn about abusing people’s legal rights by making them frightened to use British law because Sharia says something different. And a blind eye is being turned. Not good. And the flippancy is a little trite when we are talking about violence against women and women’s rights. So stop taking the piss, it is a serious issue. These (Muslim) women are British citizens who deserve the full protection of civil and criminal law.

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          • I am not taking the piss. I agree, the Law is the Law. I do not countenance any religious interference at all.
            But the good old C of E has never really been an issue has it?
            Now that the Brits are faced with hardliners they are struggling to know what to do without being seen as human rights abusers.
            Well, FTS I say. Religion of all stripes should be dumped and this is why I said the Xians and the Jews need to step up and confess it is all make believe and then attention can be turned to Islam.
            And F*** their protests of ”infringing on our culture/religion” etc.

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          • OK then, sorry for that. But I’m bored with being called rascist when I grew up in a multicultural area so many years ago. I had the privilege of being allocated the Muslim areas of town for my local reporting district. You can imagine how much they wanted to speak to a white woman, unless they wanted to make a point. Similarly, even early 80s, local councillors were making exceptions for Islamic schools. Not good. A bit like the Jewish ones in London which take the boys out of state school and shove them into religious ones to complete their indoctrination.

            At the same time, I worked with extremely nice Pakistanis (ie not clerics) who were just like the rest of us.

            The amount of radical Muslims in the country, the actual attacks (by British born Muslims) and fear of attacks, not forgetting the rape cases by gangs of Muslim men, I am sure have contributed to the Out vote. Muslims there now stay. But people see Turkey joining the EU … have you read the Turkish prime minister’s comments about women? Seriously, they are vomitsville. Even you might object (ok that was unfair).

            Votes haven’t necessarily been thoughtfully cast. Although I would wager 99% have been in self-interest rather than what would be good for the country.

            I think, for the most part, Britain does bend over to be nice and not rascist. And it gets exploited. It’s ironic that Britain is a mix between a church state and a secular one whereas America is secular. Ha!

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          • Based on what I heard Cameron say in a debate it will be a very long time,if ever, Turkey joins the EU, and after the bombs I suspect things will become just a tad more controlled for the foreseeable future.

            It’s said people get the government they deserve and in part I agree with this.
            It might sound a bit trite to say chickens coming home to roost, but there is an element of truth in that.

            All religion has an ”Ultimate Agenda” it would like to push through and the more radical/fundamental the religion the nastier many of its proponents are; usually at the expense of its own first, and then those who are considered heathen or infidel or whatever cockamamie term is being
            used.

            The problem is its insidious nature; and before you know it it has taken root and began the process of eradicating local culture etc. Very much like an ”Alien” species of plant.

            Too late to nip it in the bud now, but not too ate to put the brakes on and make a spirited attempt at normalization.

            The UK seems the perfect melting pot to watch from afar. Let’s hope – for a change- they get a bunch of politicians that are able to see the writing on the wall and have the metaphorical cojones to do something about it.

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          • You can’t seriously start a comment with ‘Based on what Cameron said …’

            I mean, really!

            Equally so though, I read something about Turkey’s entrance being rushed in. Typical huh? We never get the real stories. Treat the people like detritus.

            People only get the governments that are up for the vote, so not entirely true.

            Nipping in the bud should have started more than thirty years ago. Very difficult to reverse now.

            Not sure we’ve had a politician with cojones since dear Maggie (with whom I mostly disagreed), Benn, and a few others. I don’t see any UK politicians that ooze leadership and with a reasonable vision. Just petty small-minded people concerned about themselves. And that is a huge part of the problem. Everywhere in the world, we see self-seeking politicians looking for the power and the glory.

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          • I’m in a different position being in a BOT.

            Out of the UK but British.

            Interesting to see some news reports that Turkey is pressurising the EU for accelerated entry. With Britain out, the EU needs Turkey, they say.

            I also read that Britain was supporting Turkey against opposition from France and Germany.

            There’s nowt so strange as folks in politics.

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  16. Food banks is an American idea. They’re needed over there. We have a prominent benefits system; We shouldn’t need them!

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  17. It’s really sad to see what is happening in our world and how many people are struggling. It’s like that over here as well RS. Corrupt politicians, government officials, the works. When will it end? :(

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  18. Reading this thread is very interesting. I’m American and know little about it when all is said and done. The assessment of Germany seems accurate to me, thought I wouldn’t be able to say exactly why. Just a gut feeling I have considering their neoliberal stance on prostitution. Does that make any sense?

    Anyway. I enjoyed reading the piece and all the comments. I’m not under 43 but barely over it and I am appalled by ageism. It’s like a broken record of humanity; everybody thinks age will never happen to them.

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    • Thanks Cassandra. I have commenters from widely differing perspectives. So, it can be interesting at times. I’m guessing the news in America about Brexit just summarises the main statements from politicians without much analysis. And tbh, does it interest Americans? A bit like, do I really need to read one more article about that f***wit Trump?

      Don’t start me on the sex-pos liberal prostitution rant! I’ll be here all day.

      Ageism. You don’t realise it exists until you age. When you can’t get jobs. When you face an uncertain financial future. It’s a bit like feminism, if you are a man, you can’t know what sexism is. Empathise maybe. But ageism hits you like a smack in the face. Especially for those ugly old no-longer-attractive women. Shit happens. But to criticise old people who have lived two or three times longer, in some cases fighting in WW2, for exercising their vote the way they thought? Deplorable.

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  19. I have recently read an impressive set of statistics regarding job losses in UK due to relocation of companies, with incentives, to other EU countries. ‘Made in Britain’ used to be a guarantee of excellence – although I always wondered how such a wet country could produce Morris Minis which were unable to withstand concentrated damp.

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    • Sorry fletch, forgot to reply. I agree with both statements. On the EU specifically, I think it is making the mistake of all empires. It doesn’t realise when it has passed a manageable size and it is concentrating power in the hands of a very few distant leaders. Look at the attempted coup in Turkey, the next proposed member. Although Erdogan’s rule is little short of dictatorship anyway, and his attitude towards women is despicable. But the EU is about money. Not human rights.

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    • Are you serious? I would have sworn you would have voted in. Never can tell with folk eh? Must have been your first vote like my partner, or am I getting confused by your youthful appearance?
      To be serious, I think what was on offer for joining in 1973 and remaining in 1975 is nothing remotely resembling the situation 40+ years ago. I don’t think 3/4 countries joining the original six (and the UK would have been in there sooner if it could) is comparable with the current 28, proposed 33. Turkey? I mean Turkey? Seriously? Erdogan is a fascist, misogynistic dictator in all but name. So far. He’s doing his best to put it into law though.
      Anyway, back to the EU. You and I both know that empires get too big for their boots, lose control, and disintegrate. The EU is unravelling in front of our eyes and has been for some time. And it’s trying to shore it up by enrolling even weaker members? More slave labour I suppose.

      Anyway, speaking of EU countries with problems, hope you enjoyed Andalucía. Puerto Banus was hardly a representative resort to visit, was it? Bet you did that on purpose. Can’t say I particularly liked it. Prefer Estepona, Los Boliches, even Torremoli or Fuengi. Marbella itself is okayish. Still, if you don’t ask the resident expert for her opinion you will end up in Blingland del Sol :)

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      • I voted leave mostly on the basis of democracy (not economy or migration) and the need to return control to the people. It was a good message to the political elite that they need to do what we want them to do not what they want to do. Whatever happens next is irrelevant, the message has been delivered!
        Good choice for new Conservative party leader I have to say! Have no idea what Labour should do, what about you?
        Turkey is a mess, surely no sane EU member state would support their application to join.
        Costa Del Sol and Puerto Banus was just somewhere to stop off for lunch on the way to inland sanity.
        I was surprised just how busy Ronda was but liked it all the same but my favourite place was Antequera.

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        • Democracy, whatever that is, was one of my reasons too. Among others. And yes, that the Hoorays needed a jolt. Not everyone does what they are told because Our Leaders Know Best. I stand to lose out of it, but still, as you say, what’s done is done.

          Unless Owen Lewis wins Labour and has a referendum on terms of exit … This needs someone to get on with it, pass it through Parliament and implement it. Labour is a disaster zone. They are trying to appeal to socialists (the old joke, I’d vote Labour etc) while trying to curry favour with the middle ground and the moneyed sector. Ain’t going to happen. I don’t dislike Corbyn, but even he sits on the fence. They all do.

          I don’t agree with a lot of May’s views but at least she’s pulled her finger out and is doing something instead of sitting in Notting Hill drinking coffee. I hope she concentrates more on Brexit and less on repealing the hunting ban :( You do realise the Thatcher comparisons, so we may live to regret her success. Having said that, least worst of a crap bunch. I am waiting to see when Leadsom fucks up.

          As for Turkey, I read that Cameron held out for Turkey joining against opposition from France and Germany. Uh? I do think that Turkey joining may well have played a part in the vote. We had a Turkish bloke working in Gib, living in Spain, arrested by Guardia Civil for alleged Islamic terrorist activities …

          Ronda was nice, not too busy in December. Bit wet when we were camping. I looked at buying around Antequera. It’s OK, but Velez isn’t much difference. There is sanity on the coast. You just need to know where to look :)

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          • Will it make any difference? I doubt it. We will still trade with Europe, immigrants will come and do the jobs that Brits won’t and Gibraltar will remain British. We have given the political elites a bloody nose and that is what is important. I think Theresa May realises that and I am optimistic!

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          • I don’t imagine it will either. Good story for journos approaching silly season. Hype it all up and all that.
            For example, the pound went down and then back up. It didn’t go as it did years ago where it was nearly parity with the euro.
            Immigrants have always come to do jobs people didn’t want eg mills and bus conductors in the fifties.
            However, immigrants are coming in to do jobs Brits do want to do but they are doing it for less than half the rate. That’s a major factor. One story I read was of a former truck driver in Lincolnshire, used to work an 18-hour-day for £100. He said it was being done by eastern Europeans for £40 now. That’s a big issue for working class people. You can’t buy a house on £40 a day.
            A Czech guy here is working 12 hours a day for £80. The customer asked if that included materials.
            I agree about the bloody nose. Bet another referendum will be after our lifetime!

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  22. Your last sentence in “Sore Losers” could certainly apply to a group in the US who claims they are going to #Brexit, as they Tweet, or jump ship from the party that rejected their candidate in the primaries. They are going to stay home, write in “Bernie” or vote third-party (a throw away vote) and may effect the election. As a protest they say they don’t care if an unqualified, hateful, bigot goes to the White House. It’s like watching 2-yr-olds throw tantrums while simultaneously being adults in the 5 stages of grief. Learn to lose gracefully is a lesson we could all use in life…not just politics. We all lose sometimes. This American hopes my country doesn’t lose in November. Or the world, for that matter.

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    • Here’s a comment from another blog where I dipped in a toe:

      The idea that one side won a vote and so the conversation is over is ridiculous.

      And that is exactly my point about poor losers, just like the Americans who are sulking ‘their’ candidate didn’t win. They are all childish. I don’t disagree with a third party vote if one supports the politics, but as a protest, it is not smart. I’m just glad we don’t have presidential elections.
      Although given how America affects the rest of the world I would be happy to vote. Not for the rascist misogynist bigot though.

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      • See, no one in the rest of the world likes him either. And that’s a great comment. Thanks for getting back to me:) In our system, right or wrong, a third-party vote helps one of the two sides. No third-party candidate in history has come CLOSE to winning a Presidential election.

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        • Does anyone like him? Apart from himself? I always try to get back, but sometimes I am offline, or have weird timey things when I just need to crash.

          I do think there is a valud point for voting for non-mainstream parties.

          Years back, on a fem forum, I was surprised how many people backed Obama because he was black. Because that took precedence over Clinton as a woman. I don’t think we should put black, white, male, female in order of priority, but clearly people do. Black men take preference over white women. Big issue.

          What is America’s problem with women? Look at NZ, Sri Lanka, even the UK has managed another woman PM. The two last candidates were women. You are one hell of a sexist nation …

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          • Our problem with women? I believe two things: one is that we’ve never completely shaken our heavy Puritan roots and 2) that we were founded in big part on religious freedom and still dominated by a large percentage of evangelicals and catholics who believe according to their holy word that women should play subservient roles.

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          • Well, to be fair, every country in the world has gone down that road, but why is America so reluctant to elect a woman leader? I mean Clinton has been the only one for years. The UK had May and Leadsom for the Tories and Eagle for Labour. We’ve had other women candidates too. Catholics are irrelevant. Look at Kirschner in Argentina. Look at Golda Meir? Look at sexism more like.

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