Two sides of the same coin? No. Discrimination, well, discriminates differently.
With which we move from Islam to one of the other big three sexist/misogynist religions, in this case, Judaism.
Yup, the one about Jewish men refusing to sit next to women.
Did they think they were all menstruating or what?
If anyone complains about sitting next to fat people, we are labelled fattist. As a skinny person, I can say quite happily, that sitting next to Fatty on the bus, train or ‘plane, does not make for a pleasant journey.
And as for sitting anywhere near screaming obnoxious kids… And the ones who kick the back of your seat?
But I’m not going to stand up and kick up an almighty fuss about it. Luck of the draw.
In this case, ultra orthodox Jewish men, it was your bad luck to get allocated seats within a stone’s throw of a woman.
And, given that Judaism goes down the female line according to halakha rules (which are followed by Orthodox Jews) where would all these men be without women? ie, their mothers and their wives. They and their children would not be regarded as Jewish from birth. They would have to convert.
A while back, Dead Wild Roses linked to an interesting video where a white woman complains about sitting next to a black man. There was an available seat in first class. The black man was upgraded. Imagine half a ‘plane’s passengers complaining about sitting next to someone of a different race. It’s impossible. But women? Sure, that’s valid. Did El Al upgrade any of the offensive women whose mere problem was to be female? Of course not.
Tolerating this behaviour is sexist in the extreme and deplorable. It easily borders onto misogyny. Do not tell me sexism is not still alive and kicking. It is.
Top tip. Don’t fly El Al if you are a woman.
I know that “it takes all kinds” but sometimes people just won’t drop their so-called beliefs. Small wonder the world can be such a messed up place. And small wonder that we have to choose our battles and just give ourselves a bad day–rising from the precious bit of contentment we always seek–from time to time because it’s often worth it.
On a different note, is that a new theme I see today?
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Yup, it is a new theme, changed it with the last post. See my comments to Clare about it. All comments pro and neg welcomed.
I used the fat argument and the kids one because they provide an example of why sitting next to them (or even remotely near screaming kids) gives tangible physical discomfort. How does sitting next to a woman incommodate a passenger? Because the Torah says it is wrong? And accepting that is putting religion above the law and secular society. Very dangerous ground. Or flight, in this case.
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As a Canadian “polite” is in my genes :-) There are limits, though. Sure, I would not mind at all giving up a seat to allow friends or family to sit together but this…forget it.
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I should have added my classic (racist) story. A cancer consultant I used to work with was on the way to London on the train.
He was asked to move by a group of Germans. He produced his ticket, showing the allocated seat, and refused.
‘You might have annexed Poland, you aren’t annexing my seat.’
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Ha! I love this new theme, because now I have the spelling of your name right in front of me in big, BIG, type to remind me, always, that it’s roughseaSinthemEd. (It seems I had come to accept the “e” instead of “u”, but realize now you are actually more than one rough sea …
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The letters seem to mess it up :(
I’m beginning to think about roughseas, as I said to Kev, I think.
Maybe I am roughseas in Sin rather than in Mud?
Seriously, what do you think of the theme, if it looks crap at your end I want to know.
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Aside from the large font, I really like the theme, in general. Very good!
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Can’t change the font -– or I would! Thanks for the feedback though, always helpful.
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I should have reworded that: Aside from appreciating the large font, I really like the the theme, in general.
Or, as well as instead of aside from.
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Funny, I checked it on my (large screen) lap top and the font is in italic. Amazing!
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Does the Torah say it is wrong for a man to sit beside a woman on a plane?
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Presumably. Just as the Torah says women are thickos put on the planet to serve men. And pass down Judaism through matrilineal thingy. Don’t forget that one.
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I cannot cope with the peoples of the Book.
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The BookS. Any of them. If you need a book to tell you how to live your life…
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What really gets me is you can’t argue with them. You can’t query the word of God even when he contradicts himself. Reason is out.
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Because they are right, because god is right.
Human rights however, are right out.
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We seem to agree here.
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I’m sure I can find something to argue about :)
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Am I being racist if I state that I would find it extremely distasteful to sit next to any of those men?
Do the airline realise that with their fear of being seen as anti-semitic, they are offending a far greater majority – namely the entire feminine gender?
I love the plastic bag solution.
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I don’t know Col. I don’t know whether you would be racist, sexist, misandryst (?!!), religionist, or anti-Semitic.
It was El Al after all, so maybe the women don’t count, although it clearly racked off one female passenger.
Oh, I think I’d complain about the plastic bag if it was seated next to me. I’m sure I could find something wrong with it :)
I live within an orthodox Jewish community. I was brought up working with not-so-orthodox ones (they worked on Shabbat, allegedly with dispensation from the rabbi). But this is out and out discrimination against women, however you look at it. You and I may disagree re PC issues, but refusing to sit next to a woman is white religious male supremacy.
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The ‘male supremacy’ myth is by no means confined to whites or religions. It is unwritten (because formulated before they had any idea what writing was) custom in numerous black ‘cultures’ – the Zulus being a case in point.
On this score I have a feeling you would approve one of the underlying themes in my ‘Darx Circle’ fantasy, where I beat that particular drum rather loudly.
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Oh, I think I’d complain about the plastic bag if it was seated next to me.
I think that plastic bag is a brilliant solution provided it’s a greenhouse quality plastic. Seal it up nice and tight and don’t poke any holes in it
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Nice one, Ruth
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I heard about that story but I must admit I wondered if it was even true…after all, if the seats were pre booked then why would those men not book seats next to each other thus ensuring they were sat where they wanted? Anyway, how crazy….
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I think if it wasn’t true El Al might have kicked up a fuss by now. Hardly shows the airline in a good light.
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True.
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Years back, El Al had a reputation for being one of the most secure airlines. Now they are going to have to live with their sexist reputation. But, looking on the bright side, who cares about that?…
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OK, first of all, I am half-German and LAUGHED out loud at your annexation joke. The half of me that is American has the sense of humor. Whoops, is that a biased remark? How tedious this all this. I live in the American South and it never ceases to amaze me how riled up people still can get, once prodded, about race. Stay tuned, Kate, I’m writing a post about it as we speak…. I like your new theme!
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The seat story contains a lot of interesting thoughts. Germans, thought to be the height of order and organisation, wanting to ignore rules and regs. Brit stands up for himself in the face of considerable opposition. Brit uses sarcasm, (as ever).
Racist? Don’t know. I have to say it has slipped into our vocabulary ever since Trevor told me his story. For example, when the little dog stretches out on the bed – ‘annexing Poland’ or even just ‘he’s annexed’.
Thank you, does it work OK for you on whatever you read it on?
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Yes, it looks great on my home computer, haven’t looked at it on my phone yet. The scroll image is really BIG, but rather cool, IMHO. I will be adopting the “annexing Poland” joke myself. Although now I’m thinking….didn’t they invade Poland and annex Czechoslovakia? Whatever, it’s still funny.
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I’ve checked it on iPad and iPhone. I wanted a deeper header image for ages, I fiddled with blogger when I was on there, but WP don’t let you do that. I like the contrast of big images, white space, clean font. Suits me, and I think it suits the way I write. I’ve not looked on my laptop yet.
History can provide us with the answer we choose. And to be fair, Trevor was a medic, not a historian (unlike me). But here are a couple of sources, depending on what you choose to use in future…
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany
http://www.bbc.co.uk/learningzone/clips/hitler-annexes-czechoslovakia-and-invades-poland/2473.html
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Fabulous. I can be right AND wrong simultaneously. Now I’m reminded of the famous Bette Midler quote after marrying a German: Everynight I dress up as Poland and he invades me!
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Oh, and Kate, sorry , I do realize you’re trying to have an adult conversation here. Just get carried away sometimes! LOL.
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Of course, your comment was indeed classified as adult :)
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Rely on a historian turned journalist to provide the facts. Never let the facts get in the way of the story.
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Oh sexism is very much still alive and kicking, Kate. Damn, society condones it. We still see people writing prominently with male protagonists and heroes. We’ve yet to see the female save the male (I’ll be sorting that out in one of the Geo books later) Female stars still use semi-nakedness to raise their ratings and are praised for doing so. There are still very very few women in seats of influence in our governments and in major institutions/businesses. I could go on and on. We have a hell of a long way to go before we put a proper damper on sexism.
As for racism. Sure we all have our moments and usually with good cause. But it is more prominent in syria, iraq and india to name a few places than within western society. At least we are progressing and not stuck in the bloody dark ages. We are striving to make an effort. But for people to behead others in the name of religion, god, or whatever fucking lame excuse they can come up with… that kind of shit cannot be tolerated by the rest of the world and needs to be extinguished. This isn’t just about racism, religion, sexism, it’s about power and control in the hands of mad men. It’s murder by psycho/sociopaths that want to annihilate anyone who doesn’t believe and do what they want.
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OK I can agree with that. Now, can I get back to work? :D
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Bloody hell! Are you feeling alright? A couple of cervezas perhaps to cool off the fever? :D :D :D
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Shush. Email typed, and book sorted. I think.
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Because of doubt expressed, I googled- the story is reported in the Independent, which would check it.
Indeed, if you can’t sit next to a woman, why not ensure you can sit next to a man? Don’t they use Facebook? Actually, they don’t- there is a facebook page Haredi, but it just has a Wikipedia quote, it is automatically generated.
Rather makes me think of football fans getting drunk on a train- shouting, taking over, making ridiculous demands, enjoying their strength in numbers. Praying loudly rather than shouting.
Hasn’t Israel Airlines Ltd got experience of this, and better ways of sorting it? It being New Year, what did they think was going to happen?
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I read it on the Guraduan I mean Gaurdiwn oh dear, Guardian, as well.
Yes, it is very macho tribal culture. Horrible. Not good at all. Football hooligans is a nice one. Strict Jewish men = football yobbos.
I don’t know what they thought. Maybe they should have laid on separate flights for men and women? A bit like you get female sleeper compartments or cabins? Wonder why it doesn’t happen on ‘planes?
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I wondered why El Al didn’t just shuffle all those men off the plane immediately, suggesting they private-charter another flight altogether. One that included an all-male crew, just to be sure no females were on board.
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I think there was a suggestion the men should have done that. But seriously? In this day and age? And even offering them money to move seats? Whoa!
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Perhaps I should have used the word “ordered” instead of suggested …
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Perhaps indeed.
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Men like this are obsessed with sex and insecurities. They can’t even sit next to a woman without thinking that they want to fuck her. They don’t see a woman, they see a vagina and a sinful woman. In his article, Why Men Oppress Women, Steve Taylor writes:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/out-the-darkness/201208/why-men-oppress-women
Here’s was the view of Augustine of Hippo, a.k.a. St. Augustine, who had a huge influence on Christianity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo
Btw, love the new theme.
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In reverse order, thanks for the theme comment. You mentioned ages ago about the miserable nesting of 2011. I agreed but couldn’t find anything I liked. Hopefully this seems better on that, as well as deeper header pic and lotsa white space. Let me know of any glitches please, or where it doesn’t work.
I read Augustine years ago (history degree), but yes, men get erections and want sex so therefore it is the fault of women. Of course! Hell, we are all just sitting here waiting to be shagged. What is it with some men? We don’t move on much, do we? :(
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Correction: I said “They don’t see a woman”
I meant to say “They don’t see a human being”
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They see an object. No more no less. No person. No sentient being.
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Well, it is tough luck to sit next to a fat guy in a plane or a bus. One wants the journey to end before it begins. To complain about sitting next to a woman is absurd.
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One can equally moan about sitting next to a person and disliking their perfume/aftershave/BO. But because they are a woman and women offend their fanciful ‘beliefs ‘. A step too far in terms of both religion and sexism. Yet, they got away with it.
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That they got away with it is an indictment on the sense of these men and the religion that condones such a practice
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That they got away with it is that we live in a patriarchal world, and that people, not you, I or our friends, condone it.
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And that is the sad thing about it- that there are people, countless of them, who see nothing wrong with such practice. I would not be surprised to find there are those who would support these men
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Consider this position. Half the ‘plane is full of black Africans. So the other half jumps up and complains. It would not be acceptable. And yet, it is ok for men to demean women in this way.
Why?
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nelievable in this day and age – but then so are so many things.
Love the new theme, by the way – bigger font good for those of us with fading eyesight :D
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Ah, the missing u. Got it.
So non u eh?
Thanks for the theme comment, let me know of any probs. I can read the smallest print invented, but I loathe it from a design perspective. Don’t start me on that!
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There’s a U missing – soz – must be my fading keyboard …
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Works on mine – you mean roghseas? :D
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… and a ‘b’ … Keyboard and a glass of wine or two … hic …
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My Mac lap top keyboard is stuffed. Won’t recognise certain letters which plays havoc with passwords! Plugged in the desktop keyboard now.
iPad works ok, but, predictive text plays up
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Maybe the luggage hold would be a suitable place for these people, and hope they get lost like a lot of luggage and never find their end game…
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Chuck ’em out mid flight a bit like the Argentinians did?
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An article appeared on Global Research recently, titled When Men-Only Roads in London are Okay, which told of a Jewish holiday procession where a sign was posted in Hebrew and English at the entrance to a certain London road requesting women to walk on only one side of the road (photo of sign included). One of the author’s central points (forgotten his name, sorry) was that if the sign had been in Arabic, this would have become front-page news and the subject of endless editorial comment about the lamentable machismo of Islam, but under the circumstances was largely ignored.
Your citing of the Guardian article indicates that someone at least is willing to extend the observation beyond the Islamic version, but I think the point remains valid: Islamophobia has become sickeningly common, and is backed up by the mass murder of millions in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria, not to mention Pakistan and Yemen, committed by or funded by the US government-military-criminal-corporate establishment. The Muslims have become the new Jews, just as the US has become the new fascist superpower.
Note the parallels: National Socialism/National Security, New European Order/New World Order, Vaterland/Homeland, Blitzkrieg/Shock and Awe, Leni Riefensthal/Kathryn Bigelow. None of this is accidental: George Bush’s grandfather was a big fan of Hitler and it was his father who proclaimed the NWO. The new NatSe scene is more hypocritical of course: they don’t wear comic opera military costumes and thump the podium nowadays, it’s all suits and ties and defending democracy and collateral damage and platitudes about healing the nation to create unity (code for wrapping us all up in the fasces), but the essence is unchanged: mass murder and destruction abroad, police state at home.
I’ve strayed a bit from the theme, but it’s not too far away.
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When I was researching this post, ok a bit grandiose, when I was reading around for it, I saw the No Women Allowed sign, which I think was on the same Jewish them. For once I decided to stick to one story, but it’s very redolent of apartheid. No Blacks Allowed. Imagine the fuss if the sign had said that.
I didn’t know about Bush’s grandpa being a Hitler fan, but nothing would surprise me. I wrote ages ago about colonial and imperialism, coming to the same conclusion as you. While America rejoices that it threw off the colonial shackles of the Brits, it then goes out and does exactly the same thing. As you say, just wearing different clothes to do it in. The bottom line is the same. Invasion, killing local people, taking natural assets, putting in local governors. Just as in journalism nothing ever changes, neither does history. But why can’t people see it?
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I have nothing to say about the post, other than they should have made the bloke get out and walk.
I don’t like the new theme. ( except for the red highlight) I have given it a go and think it sucks.
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Blokes. Lots of them
I don’t think we are thematically compatible. You never like any of my themes. I worry about the red for people who don’t see all the colours, eg red, grey, green, black. Why does it suck?
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It is just too ‘Big’ and the lines down the side make it look wonky.
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Pfffft Ark! You’re wonky! Stop harassing Kate about the theme. It’s a great theme and I like ‘Big’. Seems we are also both colour blind. It’s a pinkish line by the way.
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Hey, each to his or her own.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah grumpy!
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Oi, Snow White … You calling me a Dwarf? ;)
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Hell yeah! :lol:
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The you should capitalize the ‘g’ … Grumpy.
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Pffffft! Now you’re an ‘errorist’ as well. Okay Grumpy! Be glad I didn’t give you one of the names of the menopause dwarfs. :lol:
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Flying has become a nightmare even without sitting next to a man. What about sitting above a man? Some aeroplanes are double storey now, or is a floor in between a good enough space of separation?. I suppose banging your head towards a stone wall does that to you after a while.
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“I suppose banging your head towards a stone wall does that to you after a while.”
LOL!
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It’s taken me until now to get Gerald’s comment!
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I could simply cut and paste most of my comment to Racism or Reality? into this comment… but this goes beyond that… sometimes people, things behave in ways that just don’t make sense. That’s the only way I can think about it without my mind refusing to accept the data in. I have to factor ridiculous into the equation.
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In this case, it makes sense to ‘them’ and that’s the issue :(
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I’d pleased it makes no sense to me. Otherwise I’d have to doubt my sanity and/or integrity.
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Yeah, but it’s a here today and gone tomorrow story. It’s a story, sure, but nothing with lasting effect. :(
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I had a flight delayed because a family of four from South American wanted to sit in three seats even though none of them were children. The flight attendants did their best to get them to sit in their assigned seats. It was a 15 minute battle. Most of us though felt sorry for them since it was obvious that they were just terrified and not trying to be difficult. Finally it was resolved and everyone arrived safe and sound. I hope their next flight wasn’t as traumatic.
This situation in your blog sounds unbelievable. If it was so important to them why didn’t they buy their seats together or pay for the seat next to them instead of waiting for the last minute to put up a fight.
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If there were four, why not get two seats together times two, if that makes sense?
Maybe they got seats allocated at the airport? I thought you could pre-book seats in these advanced times. Gave them all a good excuse to point out how pure are Jewish men and how dirty women are. It’s a bad story because no one kicks up much of a fuss about it, thereby just showing how ingrained in society patriarchal values really are.
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I was astonished when I read about this. They behaved like infants. If that’s how they feel about it they shouldn’t fly.
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They should stay in the men’s only section of the schul and not be allowed out into the big wide world.
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True. They also should have been kicked off and told to walk instead. :-)
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Unlikely. They were men, after all… I rest my case.
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I’m far from perfect, but I guess I simply don’t have the time, energy or inclination to take part in overt racism/sexism/elitism/etc. I’ve got enough to do without purposefully demeaning others. I understand some of the reasons it happens, but can’t comprehend why anyone would think it’s OK. Seems like it would be a difficult way to go through life, with a chip on your shoulder so big that you need to flex your perceived “superiority” whenever given the chance.
I’m fine with the new design, although your title breaks at an odd place, depending on which computer I’m using. Right now, it reads: “roughsea – sinthemed” Nothing like a little sin-themed rough sea, eh?
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Perhaps the real problem is the religious indoctrination ie they don’t even consider sexism, it’s irrelevant because what really counts is the Book of Moses, or wherever they take their OT rules from (you can tell I’m not up on religion).
Now a few people have mentioned it breaking at the D, giving roughseasintheme… I think I prefer sin the med though. I was thinking of making it roughseas, but no doubt on yours it would end up roughsea s. Can’t win huh? Thanks for that.
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Even among the religious the ultimate goal should be treating others as one wants to be treated so there should be no excuse for discrimination.
Speaking of the “Book of Moses,” I recently asked one of my daughters (age 13) if she knew who Joan of Arc was. Her reply: “Jonah’s Ark? He loaded all the animals on the boat, right?” Of course, she’s the one I was able to write an entire post on detailing her bible knowledge, or lack thereof: http://southcarolina1670.wordpress.com/2013/02/01/daughter-no-3-bible-scholar-in-the-making/
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Lucky for them I don’t like flying and if I did, they would be flying without wings. All it tells me is that people like this have no intelligence. They can’t think for themselves and just follow the silly beliefs the people before them had. So stupid!
I love this theme. The text is big enough to read and I love the red line on the side that break up the comments. Just go and check how many levels deep are your threaded comments. You can see that under Settings – Discussions – Enable threaded (nested) comments (—) levels deep. I see some of the comments tend to line up on the side. :D
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PS: Sorry … it’s more of a pinkish line. Now that the light from outside comes in I can see better. hahahahah
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Oh, and I LOVE the header! Stunning! :D
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Thank you. Not a patch on your photos but I do like a big header photo. Unlike the Grumpy dwarf.
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Pffffft! Don’t sell yourself short. Your shots are beautiful.
Oh yes, let’s not get into that. hahahahaha!
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I’ve said before, mine are to illustrate the story. Yours are the story.
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And you do it so well. As for mine … they do have to tell the story because I can’t. :lol:
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:D struggling with WP today. Won’t let me upload a pic, and I WANT one for my header :( Damn nuisance.
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Damn! That is a nuisance! But I see you did and it’s gorgeous! :D
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I didn’t. I had three to upload and couldn’t get one of them to work. Had to scroll down endlessly through my photo library…
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Not that sucks! Hope it’s fixed by now. :D
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Pinky red? Or reddish pink?
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A combo of both…hahahaha!
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Coral maybe…
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Sounds romantic. :D
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Eeugh! Not me! Let’s go back to pinky red!
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Bwahhahahaha! Yes, ugh! No romantic colours for us!
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I limit my soppiness to my furry boys 🐶
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Oh yes, for them there are just no limits. :D
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Well that’s a very succinct summary – and perfectly reasonable too.
Thanks Sonel. I tend to have comments set on max nesting. Makes no difference really, because you can continue commenting via the little notification thingy. And when you get chatty people, who am I to discourage it?
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Yes, good change, Kate. :) I like the dropped ‘d’ and bigger print. The print size is something that annoys me about mine but I don’t have time/energy to change right now.
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Very funny re the dropped D. Doesn’t matter where I look at it, I get the full word. Seems to split differently on different computers for people.
Thanks though Jo. I didn’t think font sizes were changeable unless you paid, and I’m not doing that!
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Good post but a bit short. I am in Turkey trying to make sense of Islam. It is difficult. I will post about it later.
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Cheeky toerag. You were the one ages ago who said you didn’t like long posts! Last time I listen to you. Enjoy Turkey.
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Annexed Poland! All this and fun comments, too.
(Maybe the men were afraid the women would look them over and gossip about them later? )
Oh, shake chicken (that’s part of it too? I forget. A sin that)
Love the header .
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